The Two Towers: Ch 4-6

[00:00:00] Well, what do you guys think of Rohan? What do you guys think of Treebeard? I have so many questions, so many things I want to talk about these chapters. So good. And Jen's finally watching the movie, so she knows what we're talking about. I watched the movies. And aren't they incredible? Yeah, what do you think of the movies? Um, yeah, it's still really great. I don't remember a lot of it. The scenery is really pretty, but it's funny. I'm like, what would it look like now with the technology?

[00:00:29] Yeah. Cause of all the, um, what is that called? What is it? What, like CGI? Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like each character is pretty good too. I like, I feel like they portray the book characters pretty well compared to like Harry Potter. Yeah. Harry Potter is out the window. Yeah. I was like, this is way better. Um, but overall, I like the pacing of it too. Like, I feel like it's,

[00:01:00] not as slow as the book. Some parts. Yeah. And we're still watching extended. So, Ooh, wow. If, uh, if that doesn't feel too slow, then doesn't that go against your proposal? It kind of does, but I couldn't remember cause I haven't seen the regular version for so long that I was like, I think in my head, the extended ones are closer to the books. Yeah, I think so. Where there might be scenes that actually happen in the books that then get cut out.

[00:01:29] So then I was like, I don't know what is better as far as giving proper background, but like the scene that, um, we just saw, um, the graves and Théoden like goes over and picks up one of the flowers and then he lets it fall. And he talks about how it grows only on the graves. And then that was in the book. And then I was like, was that in the movie? No, because I was like in the, in theatrical, I just couldn't remember, but it was such a great detail. So that like kind of solidified around. I'm like, I think we have to just keep it.

[00:01:59] Watching the, uh, extended. I feel like I'm like, I only saw it once in theaters, but I feel like I, all the things I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember this. I remember this. But like that scene in the forest when they're drinking the water and the, Oh yeah, that was definitely a bonus one. I remember being excited about that. And then the, the grave one, I was like, I don't remember this either.

[00:02:17] Because they do bury his son. But then I think that was it. But yeah, I don't know how much of her song and how much of the bonus scenes there are. Um, it's interesting. Cause, uh, I don't know if I've said this before, but, um, why our family used to only watch the extended edition. And the only scene my parents ever skipped was the scene where Eowyn sings.

[00:02:41] Hmm. And I, so whenever I watch on my own, I always skipped that scene too. I was like, Oh, you know, I don't want to watch this. And then I watched it for like, you know, a few years ago, like the first time. And it's like my favorite scene now. I love it so much. I think it's such an emotionally powerful scene. Um, and she's singing in like high roheric or something like that. What is she saying? Um, I forgot exactly what the song is. That's how it starts. And that's all I got.

[00:03:08] And then the scene with Faden too, when he's like throwing the symbol Myrna and he's like, ever does it, you know, grow on the, the tombs of my forebears? Ever will a grow on the tomb, the grave of my son. And then like the music swells and plays. It's just such a good scene. Yeah. But they didn't have the funeral in the book, which I was bummed about. Yeah. They kind of, they were hamming it up for the movie a little. Yeah. Because I don't mind. I think it was good. You don't, he wasn't alive. Yeah. Right.

[00:03:35] You don't really know who Thadred like Thadred is just labeled as the King's son in the book. And that's all you really know. I like that they did give him like a little bit more of a role in the movies. Um, but I do like to, the, the symbol Myrna when they're going into the, into Ediris was so much cooler in the books than the movie. Cause like the whole side of the city was white and it's a flower that blooms in like winter, spring, summer, fall. And they were talking about how like this, it just like covers a whole, all these mounds of the Kings.

[00:04:04] It's like so cool. I think it's so fascinating. Um, Lizzie, what stood out? Um, I'm happy to be reading Théoden cause he's like my favorite from the movies. So. Oh yeah. What makes him your favorite? I just like his character growth.

[00:04:27] And then I also like how like he, his relationship with Aragorn cause it's like Théoden was a good King and then he kind of fell. And then Aragorn like isn't ready to be a King in the movies. And I feel like they have a couple of different times where they play off each other where like Aragorn's like, come on Théoden. Like we can do this. Like let's go March. Yeah. And then later Aragorn's like, what are you doing? Like everyone's going to die. You're just going to lead them into battle. And then Théoden's like, what else do you want me to do?

[00:04:56] And like Théoden then has that big moment of like, I don't know, just like accepting the fate, but then also just like winning the war. Cause then they ride out onto that like bridge and all the orcs start jumping off. Yeah. So I was excited for that. Théoden is the one. Théoden is the King who was all like shriveled and kind of dark and like. Oh, okay. Cause then there was another guy with the battle. What do you think his name is? Oh.

[00:05:26] Got any guesses? I have no idea. No, no. Names are tough on this one. Aomir maybe? Real tall guy. The one that was charging the. Karl Urban's so good. So great. I am so bad with names. I haven't noticed. Sean King, if he's in anything you'd know. He's not in a ton, to be honest. He's in the Bourne movies. Are you talking about actor? Oh yeah. Sorry. Name now. I haven't. Like it sounds, it sounds like a Lord of the Rings character. Sean is like a Kervin. You don't know Arbor of Rohan. Just one name. I was like, I don't know. Why are you doing this to me?

[00:05:57] And Bernard Hill of Rohan. Yeah. These are very royal names. But yeah. Aomir I think is the one that ran into Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas in the field at first and gave them the horses. Yeah. So what about him? I thought that's what she was talking about. Oh. Yeah. Because he's pretty cool. Because I didn't actually read the third chapter. But Lizzie likes Thayden better. Oh, okay. I read. But that's why it was so great that we watched the movies. I know. Seriously. It was great. You'll know what we're talking about.

[00:06:23] One thing that's annoying on the audio book is the chapters are off. Like the name of the chapter is the wrong number. So I re-listened because I wasn't really paying attention last time. To an hour of chapter three. You click chapter four, but it says like when he's speaking, he's saying chapter three. And I was like, maybe he just got it wrong. But like I wasn't fully paying attention. So I listened to the whole thing.

[00:06:52] And then I was like, oh, like where are we at? And he's like, you're like a chapter behind now. I was like. That's okay. At least you have the movies down too. So you can keep up. Anyways. That's something like. I'll say too. As. Sorry going before we start. I was listening a little bit to the audio book. Just on a walk today. And Andy Serkis is so good except for the songs. He is so bad at singing these songs. He does. Do you get to the one with a treat with tree beard or are you singing that song?

[00:07:21] Oh gosh. I had to turn it off because it was so bad. It was like. Might be tough. Atrocious. What's his tree beard voice like? Is it real slow? Oh no, it's good voice. But then when he's singing, it's just too much. His vocals for like any character are perfect. And then he starts singing and you're like just shot. The orcs are annoying too. He does a really good job. They're just annoying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They kind of should be. Like violating. I love the Scottish accent for Gimli. I didn't realize till we heard in the car on the way here. I was like, oh, that's cool.

[00:07:52] Yeah. He does Mary and Pippin with different like Scottish or Irish accents. And then he does Gimli. Nah, I haven't listened to anything. It's good. But let's just jump into some analysis of this. Welcome to the podcast. I'm John. So, Jen. Danny. I'm Lizzie. And this is the Fellowship of the First Time Readers.

[00:08:25] So let's jump into chapter four, which is tree beard. Great chapter. Let's do a summary of this one. Am I the summary guy again? The summary guy. All right. Tree beard. Mary and Pippin go into the forest to escape orcs and they meet tree beard. He's awesome. And he calls an Entmoot and rouses the Ents to destroy Isengard. Love that. That's brief, but it was a long chapter. Entmoot. Pretty awesome. Did you get to this actually in the movies, Jen?

[00:08:55] Did I get to this? To the Entmoot? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, not really the Entmoot, actually. The meeting of tree beard, at least. Yeah. Meeting of tree beard and then the extended scene where Mary and Pippin are drinking the water and kind of growing. Yeah. But the Entmoot gets nudged farther so that Isengard stuff happens right at the end when everything else is happening. But I listened to that part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. That wasn't funny. Listening to their songs, too. Yeah.

[00:09:25] Wait, that's what you said. Mary and Pippin? No. The Entmoot. Like when they were all rat like. Yeah. Getting charged up. That was kind of fun. I like that a little bit more. He's not the greatest singer, but that section of the books just was so fantastic. And I was a little bummed because the movies just depicted it different. It makes Pippin smarter, although Pippin is smarter in the books, but it makes him have

[00:09:54] like a smarter moment in the movie when he's essentially the one that figures out tree beard and like tells him to go, oh, let's go south. Because then. Oh, because he like brings him there. Yeah. Yeah. Decides that they're not going to go to war. Sorry. In the movies. You're right. You're right. And then she's. And so he sees. It's a great scene in the movies. Yeah. But it's even better seen in the books because like they all uniformly decide on this and

[00:10:22] they're like marching down together and they're singing songs and they're like rousing each other up. I also liked how the Ents. Great. What's his name? Treebeard? Yeah. He trusted the Mary and Pippin. He didn't like bring the them to Gandalf, the wizard to like figure out if they were orcs or not. He was just like willing to accept them. Because that was weird in the movie. Yeah.

[00:10:49] It kind of felt a little bit funny that they ran into Gandalf too. Or first. Yeah. And I also felt like Treebeard in the movie after reading this chapter, I was like, oh, you know what? I like him more in the book. Cliche to say now. But I think he was less skeptical. He was like, I heard your voices and I trusted you and I'm glad I heard your voices before I saw you or I would have just killed you.

[00:11:17] But then I feel like by the time he got to the Ent mood, he was already like solidly on the side of Mary and Pippin. He already knew he wanted to go to Isengard and he wasn't so skeptical or like, I don't know, something about it. I was happy with him in the books. Pretty excited. Yeah. He was a more interesting character in the books, I think. Yeah. I'm a fan of Treebeard.

[00:11:45] I like how they met. I like how he's wise in the movies, but he's just so much more compelling and interesting of a character in the book. Like the things that he's saying about like even Saruman and like what he thinks of Saruman and then like even the idea of hasty folk. Oh, yeah. Like one line that I really loved is he said, I'm honored by your confidence, but you should not be too free all at once.

[00:12:13] There are Ents and Ents, you know, or there are Ents and things that look like Ents, but ain't as you might say. I'll call you Mary and Pippin if you please. Nice names. For I am not going to tell you my name. Not yet at any rate. A queer, half-knowing, half-humorous look came within the green flicker into his eyes. For one thing, it would take a long while. My name is growing all the time and I've lived a very long time, so my name is like a story. Real names tell you the story of the things they belong to in my language.

[00:12:43] In the old Ents, as you might say, it's a lovely language, but it takes a very long time to say anything in it because we do not say anything unless it is worth taking a long time to say and to listen to. Like they synthesize that line in the movies, but in the books it's just so great. And then he's talking, I love the idea that his name is like a story too. It's just so fascinating. I love the Ents. And I feel like this was a classic J.R. moment because I've been waiting for more linguistic things. Yeah.

[00:13:11] The intro was like this whole book was just to give history to the Elvish language. And I'm like, this feels like he developed their Ent language. Yeah. Like just a cool concept. Like older things have longer names and it's a language that takes time. Yeah. Just so great. And then it's cool too because Gandalf says that he's like the oldest creature on in Middle Earth in the next chapter. So this thing to walk around. Yeah. Under the sun. I'm like, so maybe there's older things in the deep places of the earth. He knows Tom Bombadil.

[00:13:41] They're buddies. I feel like I like them in the books and they seem smarter to me in the books because they're not as slow. Like they're rambling in the books, but the movies make them seem like they're so slow that they're dumb to me. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. That is true. A waste of time of like, okay, get to like the important thing. But then in the books, they're like, we only say the important things, like take the time. I don't know. I like them better.

[00:14:11] But I feel like it's a good interpretation. Yeah. Agreed. I think it still is a good interpretation of it. Now here's one of my questions is what it ends look like to you guys. Well, they're not just like straight up trees. Are they? Are they not? I don't know. I don't think they're trees anymore. Because it talks about their skin being bark like, but like they get, they even get confused. Are they like, are they trees? Are they not trees? They're not really trees that they are, but they take on the form of trees.

[00:14:41] But didn't they like start further from like a tree and then they've like evolved into more tree-ness? That's what I think. I don't know. And it feels like when you stop being an Ent, like from old age, you just fade into full-time trees. Yeah. So like they have to be pretty close to trees. But then in the movie. But he's also the oldest one. So he probably is very tree-like. Yeah, true. Maybe there's like two legs. I was like, how do the arms work? And like in my head, you could walk by an Ent in the forest and you would not know

[00:15:10] that he was there if he didn't want you to. Yeah. So I pictured them like they are a tree. Well, you wouldn't notice it. Like, well, yeah. Okay, we noticed this on the wall. And so I'm like, even the movie version, like just watching it, maybe the, you know, 20 years, the timing, whatever. I'm like, you know, he does stand out in the forest a little bit. So I don't know. I was going back and forth. I couldn't quite picture it. Yeah. And each one looks really unique. And young ones look like young trees.

[00:15:38] You guys, by the way, I haven't told you this yet, but you guys should totally check out the artwork of Ted Naismith on Lord of the Rings. It is so good. He does this one. And it's one of my favorites. You're writing it down? Of course. I think his grandfather invented basketball. James Naismith. He does this one. So this is, this is his meeting with Mary and Pippin. It's like, here's Mary and Pippin. And then this is Treebeard.

[00:16:09] Just chilling with his butt out. If he apparated, his apparition noise would be huge. It'd be huge. Wow. But like, he's just chilling here with his back face to them, like sprawled out. I also feel like they stop moving and they become more tree-like. And then you kind of like wake them up and they become more human. So like, you could walk past them and miss them. And then like, you start talking to them and then you realize like, oh, you're like fully sentient. I don't know. That's kind of true. Although.

[00:16:40] What are you guys looking at? Moria. Oh, yeah. He does all the fellowship. Arrival at the Shire. He does. You guys got to check it out. What's his name? Ted Naismith. Like, I'm obsessed with his artwork. It's so good. And then. Was he involved in the movies at all? No. The two people who were involved in the movies were John Howe and Alan Lee. And they were like, move. Like, John Howe just did. I think he just did like, like busts of people. Like portraits of like orcs. Oh, wow. And like characters. Because it's all I see is work. Alan Lee was a bit more detailed.

[00:17:11] But Ted Naismith is my favorite. And he does George R. R. Martin. And he just like spends his time like illustrating these works. And what a life. I know. And like people are putting these in books. And they're so good. Oh, I love his Rivendell. Yeah. He does a bunch of different ones too. Like he does a few different ones of Rivendell. He did a few different ones of even Treebeard. And what the Ents look like. But he does different ones of the Ents. Because in some they look like trees. In some they don't look like trees. In some they look like they're like beings that are just walking around. That are just 14 feet tall. No, I gotta find my big booty Treebeard.

[00:17:41] It's the one where he's just sitting on the Rockledge. Oh, yeah. The Argonaut. Oh, yeah. Like this one? Yeah. What is that? Yeah. That's the Ent moot. And he has another one where I guess they're... I guess this is one is where they're like all marching out. Because it's like... I think it's the Quad of Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. And it's just these Ents that are standing on the edge of the woods. Like looking straight out. Like calling to something almost.

[00:18:11] These ones just look like people with vines on them. Some of these. Like look at this one. It looks like they're kind of like... You could maybe confuse them for a tree. But like not a living tree really. Yeah. More like a stumpy... I kind of like that. But they have two legs. They have toes. I don't know if I'm going to get off of this. I'm like... They have some of three. Oh, yeah. True. Three to nine, I thought. Yeah. Three to nine.

[00:18:41] Nice, Jen. You're crushing it. All right. Come on. Look what happens when she knows the movies now. She's counting toes. But... They also walk so fast. I know. They like fast. I feel like miles and miles. Well, we were just talking before you guys came in. They... Oh, yeah. He did 70k steps. More than that. Like they counted at the minimum. In the entire day. Treebeard's like... I just did 70k in one day to get to Treebeard's house, I think. Or to get to the end move. Whatever one. Yeah.

[00:19:11] I think the house. Yeah. Which I've done, I think like 30 to 40,000 steps in one day once. Or like a few times. Like backpacking. Like you're literally walking all day. And you do like 20, 25 miles. He must be doing... No joke. He doubled that. Risk. End steps. End steps is huge. They must have gone from 100 to 150 miles that day. Well, I noticed it when it was like he crossed the stream. And I was like... Oh. Like in one step. Like he literally crossed the stream.

[00:19:41] It's crazy. Absolutely crazy. So... I guess they're speedy. Are you going to sneeze? No. It's basically... We're smelling... Downwind. Yeah. You're downwind for a source. You can open a window too if you want. Keep it on that side. Gotcha. He sprays it. He can be rough sometimes. But there's a scene in the movies where I think Mary and Pipner are talking before they... Or when they're on like the door of Fangorn.

[00:20:11] And they talk about the old forest and how the elves came and seemed to wake the trees up. But... And Treebeard talks about how the ants were kind of... Cured of their muteness by the elves. But in the movies I always thought the elves like created ants. And it's not like that. I don't think the books have that. You know... I a little bit did think of it though. Really? Yeah. Like I'd have to find the line. But it felt like Treebeard credited the elves with...

[00:20:40] Maybe not their creation in the traditional sense. But it almost felt like he just... Like what did they say? Awakened them? Yeah. So yeah. Like takes away their muteness. Yeah. But it felt like they couldn't move before that. And maybe couldn't communicate. Was it like gave them their speech? I forget what it was. Yeah. But I almost in my mind I took that to be like the elves created them. But maybe that's too broad a stroke to be. I like that. It's interesting too because in the... When they're classifying the beings... Oh yeah. Really funny.

[00:21:10] In their song. There's four groups of beings. And orcs aren't included in that. But it's men, ants, elves, and dwarves. And then they add line onto hobbits which I love. Yep. But that makes me also think that if ants are singing these songs they knew that they were beings before the elves maybe created them. But I don't think... I wouldn't say that the elves created them. I feel like the elves just gave them speech or gave them a language which I feel like is key for Tolkien probably. You're right. You're right. Like I feel like if you have a language then that makes you like a form of being.

[00:21:39] That gives you like agency a little bit more than just like you know a creature like an eagle or like he has like the badger or whatever. The snake is the slyest or whatever he says. So I don't know. I think language plays a huge part into that. The elves just gave them a language I'm guessing. They developed that language into what they wanted which is like just a very long form of language. Well what about the ant wives though? Why? Because aren't those like more people-y? What about those ant wives? Because they got it so weird.

[00:22:08] It seems like the antithesis of a tree. Yeah. They're like doing the landscaping. And they lost them? And they lost them? To me it seemed like the ant wives were like interesting. Interesting. To me that- I was confused too but this is new. Wait. Keep going. I guess. Huh. Well I don't know. He's also- Treebeard's also saying what the ant wives went to do and they like went across- There was a theory that someone threw out in the discord that people I think disproved

[00:22:36] but someone said like hobbits are the real ant wives or hobbits are the fruition of the ant wives or something. I feel like that's not true. But they went off across and people think they dwell in the hobbiton because hobbiton would be perfect, the perfect, perfect place for them. They like pastures and they like organizing. And it was like they saw these young things that they can control and organize and went across to them. So like Treebeard was selling this story and I was like the ant wives are just like type A like promiscuous woman.

[00:23:06] Yeah. They didn't like the ants so they're saying honey you stay here. I'm going out to foreign lands. I'm going to chase after the cherry trees and the poplar trees and organize them and keep them like you know exactly where I need them to be. I feel like they couldn't control the ants. I'm so curious more about the lore of the ants and the ant wives. I want all the people to know that. Wait so you're saying the ant wife is a tree? I don't think so. The ant wives were a tree.

[00:23:33] I think they're more closely looking like ants than they are like the actual than they are like people. But I don't know. I would classify them as. How do you lose them? I don't know. I thought I heard like in the garden and then they got lost. Yeah. Because they go out and they search for them and they keep trying to go further and further and they can't find them. Oh.

[00:23:58] I thought there was like some original species that like ants and ant wives came from. And then in my mind the ants planted themselves in the woods and then became tree like because they were like content to stay there. And then the ant wives were like oh we want to be out and about. And then they just started. I don't know. That's how you lost them. The fact that they're like gardening is weird. Yeah. And they just kept going. Moving away further and further.

[00:24:28] I view them. There's a depiction in. I just kept having this picture in my head. In Chronicles of Narnia. In the movies. They depict dryads and naiads I think. Which are like tree spirits. And to me the ant wives. Yes they seem like more like ants than they do people. But like they're the pretty trees. That like they flower. And like I almost depicted them as like the flowers.

[00:24:56] That like they go around and they make the things beautiful. And they like have form of the flowers and the trees. They feel more. They feel less like tree like to me. They feel more like. They're decoration. Like maybe I guess. I don't know. That makes sense to me that they're like carried by the wind. Like they. I don't know. I don't understand it. It's so bizarre to me. But. Carried by the. Like they're blowing away. Yeah. Like they take shape of like flowers. It's like.

[00:25:24] I'll give you a good Harry Potter analogy. You know in the movies when they try to scare. People that go into 12 room old place by like that dust moody. Yeah. Like that's. That's an ant wife. Like the flowers are on all on the ground. And all of a sudden those flowers take form. That. Those flowers take shape. And they become this ant wife. And then I guarantee you. If you are Lord of the Rings. They're like no. They're just trees. You're just an ant. Oh so there could be more. That's my.

[00:25:53] That's the picture that I have in my head of what the ant wives look like. But their story is so fascinating to me. It says. The ant wives knew where whiter blossom and richer fruit were growing. Underline that and said who hurt J.R. Are. This feels personal. It feels like he's like throwing it out there. Like women aren't what they used to be. You know. Like. I love the same. Like he had a couple bad experiences. Because it felt too specific. Yeah. I was like wow. Poor guy.

[00:26:23] He's been through it. He's. Yeah. He's been scorned. Every season they go out looking for the ant wives. Can't find them. Um. I did note. Um. Earlier in the chapter. It was talking about Pippin. And when he met Treebeard. And then. It was like a funny thing that he does. When it goes into like history mode. Often afterwards. Pippin tried to describe. His first impression of them. And it was just a single line. But it. It takes you out of the story. Yeah. And kind of tells you.

[00:26:53] Pippin survives this whole thing. Which you kind of already know. Because it wasn't. It was a Mary or Pippin. Who was going to be the historian. And kind of take notes. So I'm like. Oh man. It's such a fascinating little thing. When you're like worried about it. And then it's like. Wait. Yeah. He survives. Well. But it's weird. Like what a weird thing to like. Give that hint. So early on. Well that was. Or did I misread it? No. You didn't misread it. But it's Pippin. So Mary's the one that's going to keep the. Keep the records. Because he's like. I'm going to go. Go and tell. You know. In the previous chapter. He's like. All right. I think.

[00:27:22] He's like. I'm going to go tell. You know. Bilbo all your accolades. He was going to tell the description of them. But. It gives what merit. What Pippin says. What he. What he would say. Because he was describing the eyes. Because in that. In that section. It said. What their eyes look like. And then. There was enormous well behind them. Yeah. And then. Ages of men. Yeah. Exactly. And then that. That next paragraph.

[00:27:51] It describes how Pippin described his. The eyes to. I totally missed that. Because then. I took that as like. Just him in the moment. Again. Yeah. But that makes so much sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which it's a great description on their eyes. I'm like. Pippin really had a good grasp. On what their eyes look like. Because it's so beautiful. Yeah. I like. Highlighted that. I'm like. He's. He's so good with his words here. And I love that. That was their. Their understanding of. And Stu. It like came from their eyes. Like they knew that they were good.

[00:28:21] And kind creatures. Based on their eyes. And then. When they have the end. All these other ends come. But. Treebeard's eyes are the deepest. And like the. The greenest. And the goldest. And the brownest. And like they have all these hues to them. That's one thing that I. When. When they were describing the eyes. I was like. I would love. To see what like. An ends. What eyes really look like. That seems like the coolest thing in Middle Earth. That's like so valuable. But yeah. That was a great description. Even going.

[00:28:51] On to that too. Like this is maybe. Actually. Let me ask this question before. Before. The ends talk about something. Called the great darkness a lot. Treebeard mentions it a few times. He's like you know. These things haven't happened since the great darkness. Or whatever that was. Yeah. And it was like capitalized. It was capitalized. Yeah. You guys have any understanding what that is? Probably one of the ages or something. Yeah. Right. Probably like ended an age. Or started one. Because it's interesting.

[00:29:20] I like getting their perspective too. Because like. Like I like their idea of don't be hasty. These things are happening. And they're just taking their time. Deciding and deliberating. Like like ages come and ages go. But they're still remaining steady. And they're like you know. They've seen you know. The terrors of the world. But this great darkness to me. Seems like the worst event in like Middle Earth. For the ends at least. Yeah. And I don't know if it was maybe the rise of Sauron. Or it seems to predate that to me.

[00:29:49] It seems to be like almost a formation of Middle Earth. As they know it. Yeah. A shadow of the great darkness. Lying there still away north. Yeah. And bad memories are handed down. So I'm like. Then I'm like well what happened up north? In my mind there's not much up north. I think Aragorn kind of came from up there. And then the elves from Rivendell went up to do something. Yeah. But I'm like I don't know what was up there. And what is this shadow. Yeah. Of the great darkness up there. And.

[00:30:18] So there's still darkness. That made me think. Because. There's only one volcano in Middle Earth right. That's Mount Doom. Never thought about it. And so. I'm only thinking that because I'm reading some Brandon Sanderson. And like there's these things called the ash mounts. These volcanoes. That just spew ash in the land. And there's it's cloudy every single day. And they don't know what the stars look like. I'm like maybe the great darkness was a time when Mount Doom just erupted.

[00:30:44] And there was like clouds over the sky for you know I don't know maybe like a century or something crazy like that. I don't know. And there could still be some of that up north. And Ence needed. Yeah. They're still looking up north. And Ence needs sunlight in order to like thrive and grow. So they weren't getting that. I don't know. That's what I kind of think it is. But. Do you think that's when he like made the rings? Maybe. Yeah. Honestly. Like maybe he made the rings and like like his evil was spreading throughout the entirety of Middle Earth. And because again orcs need shade.

[00:31:14] They you know have bad sunburn. They need cover. So that's what the Mount Doom kind of gives them. If it erupts I guess. The little words we got here I think in Ent. In the appendix it says black shadow in the deep dales of the forest. Is what that means. So I guess maybe the same kind of vibe. But there's also a point too where.

[00:31:43] Because I keep thinking about this because Lizzie you were talking about Dune last time. You're like I like how it's the. You go in not knowing anything and the first novel tells you all about it. And like you're walking. And I'm like I would love a novel like that. So I'm like I definitely want to read Dune. But I also love this so much. Because there's so much like behind every single word. Like I this. I think Lord of the Rings was one of the last things he wrote. I might be totally wrong about that. But I think it was one of the one of the later things he wrote.

[00:32:11] But he already had all these histories. So this is like the culmination of all of his work. All of his like research. And he just throws something like the great darkness in there. Probably assuming his audience should know what it is if they followed his work. But here I am reading his like you know culmination of his work first. Not knowing anything. But it's so exciting because there's so much else that I get to like read. Yeah yeah yeah. And try to figure out. But I'm like not like that. So I just have the attitude. I'm like all right whatever. Like I'll Google it. Like I don't have the.

[00:32:41] Maybe with this I would get into and be like all into the lore. Yeah. But for the most part I just want to read my book. Yeah. Enjoy it. And be done. And like not have to think about it too much. Yeah I feel that. I feel that. But yeah. Because like I read that. And I'll spend like five seconds thinking about it. And then I'm just like eh. I don't know what it is. And then I keep reading. And I'm like I'm not. I'm not stuck on that. Like it's not a problem. You know. It was dark. It was dark. Okay. It was dark. Great darkness.

[00:33:10] And I think so far a lot of characters. I'm trusting every word wholeheartedly. So when Treebeard says a thing. It's not that he got high on some forest juice that he's been drinking. It's like no. He was. Well I mean it really does feel like it. Yeah what is that? But it's like I'm assuming that he basically was there. I'm like great darkness. Oh yeah. For sure. The elves gave him life. Absolutely they did. He was there. Like I'm taking everything as absolute gold. And I'm not so sure we're always supposed to do that.

[00:33:40] But especially with someone like him. I'm like oh yeah. Yeah. He's one of the characters I trust the most. Yeah. I don't know why. But yeah. Nobody has been like deceptive. And then it like comes out later that what they said was wrong. It really he does just kind of write the story. Yeah. And you can trust it. I feel like there's. I feel like Aragorn was the only character that maybe initially you were unsure about. But as soon as you meet a character in Lord of the Rings you know. Like we met Grima Wormtongue. In like the sixth chapter.

[00:34:10] And you're like this guy is awful. This guy is so terrible. Like spits on the king's. Yeah. Oh my. I love when he took the bucket and like washed it. I was like yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's so great. That was one of my favorites. That was cool. Oh yeah. The Great Darkness. It's a strange little thing. But I definitely trust Treebeard. I feel like he is the. Oh yeah. The all-knowing source of information in Middle Earth. I would just stay with him forever. I'd be like. I'm good here. So great.

[00:34:39] That's like your thing too. Plants. Tree hugger. Ultimate tree hugger. I was going through in my notes every tree they mentioned. Like most of them have had some major disease happen to them. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. What the? Like elms, ash. I think they mentioned chestnuts, beaches. They all have like terrible things. So like. You have the emerald ash borders, the chestnut disease. You weren't telling me. Right? Yeah.

[00:35:08] That's crazy. So like. That's sad. I was thinking. I was like. What does a 2025 Fangorn look like? No. It's like pretty empty. Not too much going on there. Yeah. Trees were going by the wayside. So like. I know. The more and more that I'm reading. The more I'm picking up on like environmental work. That he's actually trying to portray. And some of the stuff that he's writing. Like I think. I got that with a few different things that he was writing. I don't know. That's a good question. 1973. You saw a date.

[00:35:39] But I just. I like. In one of the previous chapters. They gave. Pippin. That draft of drink. And. And. It was really. Really similar to the. Miravore. That. Elrond gave. Gandalf. To like. Give them on their. On their journey. And that thing like. Warmed them up. And it did the same thing. And this. Orc. Drink. Seemed like the Miravore. But it seemed like a cheap imitation of it. And it seems like. The dark side.

[00:36:09] In Middle Earth. Is selling these cheap imitations. They're like. The fake market. And then like. Maybe he's mentioning these chestnuts and ash. And these trees that are like. Have significant health issues. In his world still. Maybe he sees that they're. These things are happening. These. These trees are like. You know. Going away. And he wants to make a point. That he's like. These are the oldest trees. These. These are the ones that have been around for the longest. You know. You have to work to protect them. Because they. They can become ants.

[00:36:39] Yeah. So I'm going to take walks in the forest now. Protect the chestnut trees. Did it mention what tree. Tree beard is. In the appendix. It hinted that he was a beach tree. Oh. Okay. But. I'm not sure what that was based on. But that's what I wrote. Okay. Are you reading the appendix. The appendix. Only because at the bottom. It said. Yeah. Appendix F. So I was like. Okay. And then. I wrote. Tree beard is a beach tree. I think. I forget what it was that I saw in there. But I think it mentioned him.

[00:37:09] And it might have said something about beach. But. Oh. They're pretty. I thought it was interesting that. Tree beard said. Gandalf was the only wizard that cared about them. And then it made me think about Radagast. And I wondered. Yeah. Right. Like maybe he just never made it to this part of the world. Or. Is he more just about critters. Not trees. Maybe. Like animals. Not trees. He's like. In the Hobbit movies. Did you see the Hobbit movies? No.

[00:37:38] Because we're going to have to watch those when we read the Hobbit next. Of course. Because he shows up there. And I still don't remember if he actually was in the book. Yeah. But. In the movie. He's bizarre. He's a little zany. He's got a bird's nest in his hair. And like. I think if I remember correctly. Bird poop dripping down his face. I think so. Might as well have been in his mouth. It was gross. I remember being like. Oh. Yikes. So he comes up early in this. Because he's the one who stops Gandalf. And says. Saruman needs you. And then sends Gandalf off to like. Get captured. Yeah.

[00:38:08] But he is an animal lover. He shows up in the Hobbit. Being pulled on a sleigh by rabbits or something really weird. Rustabelle rabbits. I remember that. For some random reason. I just pulled that out of nowhere. But he gives me the kind of vibe. That he would love the trees. Yeah. So it just threw me off. And I've been pondering all wizard lore. In these chapters. Because then I'm like. If Gandalf is Gandalf the white. And there's a white wizard council. Is he now on the council? Is he the head of the council?

[00:38:37] How does wizard hierarchy work? Well I think. And I could be totally wrong about this. But I feel like I faintly remember hearing about this. That. When Gandalf was going through it. Which I. We got to talk about that in the next chapter. But he comes back. And he essentially takes the place of Sauron. Or Saruman. Who is a white wizard. That's what I thought. Okay. Maybe there's a vacancy for the great wizard now. Hmm. And no one comes for the. Like no one takes. Becomes the great wizard.

[00:39:07] But maybe Radagast is like. Oh man. Maybe I should die and become the great wizard. Because I feel like Radagast is less powerful. I don't know. Because he's Radagast the brown. Yeah. If I remember correctly. Right. Because there's five wizards in Middle Earth. The red and the blue we don't know. I think no one knows who they are. Or green or something like that. I don't know what those are. But I don't think anybody knows anything about them. Maybe I'm totally wrong on this. Well Tom Bombadil. He could be the blue wizard. I'm speaking like an expert on this. And I didn't know it. No no. But it's the best we got. He wears green, blue, and yellow. So maybe. He killed them. And he took their powers. I don't know.

[00:39:38] But then the three are Radagast the brown. Gandalf the gray. And Saruman the white. But now he's Saruman the many colors. So he like forfeited his identity. And now Gandalf comes back as Gandalf the white. So essentially the god of Middle Earth. I don't remember the name. Eru Iluvatar or something like that. Which some people are railing me in some of my videos. Because I'm like talking about that. People are like. You need to know who this is. If you don't you shouldn't even be making videos about others. I'm like whatever. That's so funny. It's like you gotta start somewhere. And I'm excited.

[00:40:07] So let me learn. But I think potentially the god or the gods of Middle Earth sent Gandalf back to take the place of Saruman the white. So Gandalf is now Gandalf the white taking the place of the most powerful wizard that they sent to Middle Earth. Potentially. I might be totally wrong about that. Is that why you're like into the idea of this opening fate? Yes. Because he like is sent back. Which is literally my next question. Everything in this chapter seemed like it was guided by fate.

[00:40:36] Or chance or people are calling it providence. Because if you look at the beginning of this chapter. I don't believe in fate. I don't really either. So. But if you look at the beginning of this chapter. Merry and Pippin just happened to come across the oldest creature in Middle Earth. I know. It seems too plot driven. I'm like Tolkien. He's a plot driven author. But. I made a whole video about this. It's only fate because you know that it ends. Good. So then it's a split between good and evil. Nope. Yes.

[00:41:05] And then everything that's good that happens you label as if you're fate. No. Not at all. Because the bad things are happening. But I think the gods are literally twisting. Not twisting things. The gods are literally opening up avenues for Merry and Pippin to go down. So that they see and they meet certain people. Why the heck. Like you're telling me on a random chance that Merry and Pippin walk into Fangorn and they meet the oldest living creature. The greatest tree herder. In all of this stinking forest. This massive forest.

[00:41:34] It's probably more than like 200 miles long. And then there's another point in this book too where it mentions the only reason they went up there is because there was like a ray of light coming down into the forest. Oh so true. This spit of rock and they're like we need to get up there. And so there's like a clearing in the forest. But it is random. It is random. Just because you know that it ends. No no no. Yes. I feel like fate is just like the means to the end and you label it because you know that it happens. It might be.

[00:42:04] I love it. To me fate sometimes I like it because it covers up what could otherwise potentially feel like sloppy writing because it's like one story can only have so much luck before that feels like okay how can all these random lucky things happen. But then when there's fate which I think he might be hinting at or guidance from you know divine powers. Then I'm like well that makes me feel a little better about it.

[00:42:34] Because I thought that a couple times in these chapters. I'm like what are the chances. And then he talked about Aelmere and running into the orcs. And I'm like you're right. The whole story would have been over if he didn't catch the orcs. He would have gotten the hobbits all the way back. Even how Merry and Pippin escaped that one terrible orc. Yep. It said like he raised his hand to like do him. And the book literally says whether it be fate or whether it be fate. Aelmere goes right through his hand and it stops him.

[00:43:00] Like I at least at the very least Tolkien is trying to get you to ask these questions. And one of my favorite parts about Tolkien too is he doesn't answer the question. So whether you think it's by chance you can think it's by chance. Whether you think the gods are working in Middle Earth and forcing everything to go down some path you can think that too. Right. I feel like it's a good combination between the two. But everything that was happening with Merry and Pippin in this chapter I was like it feels like the god of Middle Earth is trying to get good to win.

[00:43:26] So it's like giving Merry and Pippin opportunities in order to arrive at their destination which is where he needs them to go in order to meet Treebeard so that he can take down Saruman the many colors and like they can really free at least this section of Middle Earth. It's like the god of Middle Earth is playing chess right now. Like setting things up. Setting up a move like three moves ahead. But Lizzie you don't like me. I'm hoping. I don't know. I see what you mean. There's no fate in Dune.

[00:43:58] I think I'm just not really thinking about there being like a puppeteer behind all this orchestrating it. Like I just kind of think of things happening in the moment because it seems so random but then I don't know. Yeah I feel like it could be there's some fate involved but I like the idea of it being like random chance. Yeah. Or yeah I mean the stars could be lining like everybody needs to be on the same page at some

[00:44:28] point. So like all this falls into place. But I don't know. I don't know. I know something about it. But I also like I didn't pick up on like I don't know the whole deal with Gandalf being brought back to life and like being sent back. That that is like my major that makes it seem like fate. Yeah. It does. If Gandalf's like no you're actually back in the story then it's like okay obviously something is going on. Yeah there's something greater. But.

[00:44:58] Although I want to talk about the next chapter for what really happened with Gandalf because that's like an interesting one. Oh yeah. Well so hold your chance discussion for a second. I'll be here. Just let me know when you need me. Anything else in this chapter before you go to the next? No I just wrote like what Lizzie said. Well. Treebeard's so much smarter than I thought because of the movies. I get their names messed up but Saruman. Mm-hmm. The wizard. Yes. Yeah. He was getting info from.

[00:45:29] Oh I forgot his name already. The tree. Treebeard. He said that. Oh yeah. He was getting info from me. Right. Yeah. And then that's how he knew how to navigate the forest with the orcs. And I was like what the heck. I didn't even like. He used them. Yeah. Which. Ah yeah. And then he regretted telling him all that. Yeah. Yeah. That line made me think how. How did Saruman fall? Like he seemed like. He said he already was probably evil then. Exactly.

[00:45:57] How much evil was he or something like that. When I was like talking. Mm-hmm. Talking to him. Like I'm curious what the point was where Saruman was like. But yeah. Like when did he. I need to go to the dark side. Or I need to set up an army myself. I need to make. I need to get this ring. Or was he ever really good? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Honestly. Which is a dark question. Because he was prideful. Because it's going to make me reread like. Yeah. Anything else that he's in. It reminds me of like the. You know. The faith stories of like. How prideful you could be in your fall. Pride comes before.

[00:46:27] And you want to become your own God. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly that's a great point. It's like the. I mean. In. It's like. Feels like the fall of. Almost like Lucifer right here. Yeah. Like promoting himself up to be like this God. Or something like that. And then all of a sudden he falls. Because of his pride. I'm curious what the moment was for him. I think it's just. Like power is attractive. And he's a powerful being in Middle Earth. And then in this moment. Because there's the one thing where. Gandalf is telling the story in the Council of Elrond. He's like. Saruman is like.

[00:46:57] He's Saruman of many colors now. And he's calling himself ring bearer. And he's like. If he gets the ring of power. Saruman could potentially set himself up as. The most powerful entity in Middle Earth. Like no one could compete with him. So I think he recognizes that. And he's like. I want that. But I thought they kept saying. The other one. Elrond. Yes. He would never give up power. Isn't that what Gandalf was telling him? Yeah. Like why would you choose that side? You can't share power. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:47:27] Yeah. But I don't know if he ever intended to share power. Yeah. I don't think he did. Who? I think he. Saruman. He's trying to set up. I think he wanted to be. The guy. Yeah. But how? Which. That's totally different from the movie. Because in the movie. He's like allying himself with Saruman. Yeah. In the book. It's like no. He's setting himself up as this totally independent. Ruler and kingdom. And like the orcs from Mordor. Which is an interesting section. The orcs from Mordor. I hate the. The Uruk-hai. Yeah. Yeah. He has them stamped right? The white.

[00:47:58] Stamp. Yeah. Exactly. White hand. Yep. White hand of Saruman. Saruman. Is the eye of Sauron in the story yet? Like. Is that the. It's like in the distance. They've mentioned that I think twice. When Frodo puts on the ring. I think he sees the eye wreathed in flame. And then. The white hand of Sauron on the army of the Uruks. There is the eye. The great eye is the emblem of the Mordor orcs. So that's on their armor.

[00:48:27] Or they're on their helmets or something like that. So does the rest of the company like understand what that is though? That's a great question. I don't know. I think so. But I don't know. I don't know how. I feel like they don't know. Honestly. I think you're right. Because it doesn't talk about that in the story that much. Do you feel like if that is something everyone knows. Then it's something that they would want to talk about. Yeah. There's an eye wreathed in flame. That's Sauron. What does this mean? It's pretty strange.

[00:48:55] But I love the ending of this chapter. It was so victorious about their like march into Isengard. And I love some of the lines that Tribune had. And this is the last thing I'll say on this before we move on to the next chapter. But the book says there is not that an old ant can do to hold back that storm. He must weather it or crack. He says in a bit. I think that now I understand what he is up to. He is plotting to become a power. He has a mind of metal and wheels.

[00:49:25] And he does not care for the growing things except as far as they serve him for the moment. And now it is clear that he is a black traitor. He has taken up with foul folk, with the orc, or whatever he does. Worse than that, he has been doing something to them. Something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked men. It's a mark of evil things that came in the great darkness. They cannot abide in the sun. But Saruman's orcs can endure it even if they hate it.

[00:49:53] I wonder what he has done. And why? And are they many as ruined? Or has he blended the races of orcs and men? And that would be a black evil. So it's interesting that Treebeard is even asking these questions. And then the last thing that he says, which I don't know how I've written down, but I had in my book, obviously. I underlined in my book. But it was him talking about how strong he is. They're stronger than trolls. Trolls are like a cheap imitation of them.

[00:50:21] And he's like, we can crush stone. And trolls are made almost after stone fashion. So he's like, we can go into Isengard right now if Saruman doesn't start casting spells. And we'll crush everything in there. And I love his confidence in that. And so they're all singing this song of victory down this hill. Going to Isengard. And I'm like, let's go. I'm so pumped at this section. It was so good.

[00:50:45] There were a couple times in these chapters where the analogy of water or a dam breaking. Yeah. And in the movies, there is a dam. The ends break. So I'm curious if that actually comes up in the Isengard area or if that was just Peter Jackson with a little nod to that metaphor. Yeah, that's a good point. So I'm waiting to see that. I thought Mary and Pippin were so sweet to Treebeard.

[00:51:14] I felt like they were trying to hear the songs. They were genuinely interested. It was a really cool friendship. They didn't seem nervous. Totally content. Which I thought was great. I'm just going through a few other notes here. I loved their first impression was incredible. I was like, that's why I thought the Fade discussion was there too. Because they're super kind to this guy. Or maybe I have a Fade thing, but they're super kind to this guy. And all of a sudden, he's like, oh, it caught him off guard.

[00:51:40] Even the first thing that he said, Pippin was like, or Mary said, I think this forest is actually kind of nice in the light. And Treebeard's like, oh, that's nice of you to say. He's such a good listener too. The dialogue is so balanced between them. I love to. And he trusts that they're just telling the truth. They're like, who are these little foolish creatures? I don't know. What do you like lays down and he listens to Mary and Pippin tell the whole story from start to finish.

[00:52:08] And he's like asking them really inquisitive questions. Love Treebeard so much. Makes me so happy. In the Ent song, it goes between Ent and Ent Wife. And then at the end, together we'll take the road that leads into the west. And far away, we'll find a land where both our hearts may rest. And I just thought, is that the Undying Lands? Oh, yeah.

[00:52:37] And if the elves kind of gave them their voice, is there some of that elf pull to the west? Just the fact that it says west and it's implied they'd be together again. I don't know. It just made me wonder. They'd be going to the Undying Lands. That's actually interesting. I kept thinking. I was like, they need a Maloran tree in this fight. One of the elves needs to wake up a Maloran tree. So that Maloran tree can just, like one of the Redwoods. You got a Redwood coming across from America. America.

[00:53:07] Do you think the drink is like made in Fangorn? Because I don't think it'd be like sap. But I was like, what if there's like. It feels like that. The things that they're drinking. Because if the elves brought them in, the elves have that. Maybe. They have their own drink. I like that it was like sustenance to them. And I like that there were two different varieties of it. Yeah. There were two different jars. But like they had one and then the other one tasted different and like filled them up. And they just had Lembus bread because they needed to do it. Because they needed to have it.

[00:53:41] But yeah, great chapter. All right. Let's do the White Rider chapter. Chapter five. Another good one. You got a summary of this one? I sure do. Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas explore Fangorn and meet Gandalf who is alive. They catch up. They catch each other up. Well, Gandalf catches them up on what's happening basically. So Gandalf does a debrief with them.

[00:54:10] What did you think about the Gandalf reveal when he comes back? It was so suspenseful. Yeah, it really was. Like I knew it was coming and I was still on the edge of my seat. He was just holding out for us. He was like, yeah, I thought it was so good. You could tell. I feel like when Tolkien was writing that, he was like smiling the whole time. He's like, yep. I love this. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:36] And then was that Saruman as the little gold old man? Gandalf said it was. He didn't know, but he thought it was. That's so weird. It might be Radagast. It might just be a random old man. Yeah, because Gandalf said it wasn't him. Oh. Because they asked him about it. Like, oh, that was you by the fire last night, right? And he's like, no, it wasn't me. Yeah. And then he's like, fine, Gimli. I'll forgive your rudeness to me before. But because Gimli's like, shoot him. Shoot him. He's gone.

[00:55:07] He's on top of the hill panicking. I was dying at that section. Oh, gosh. Yeah. I feel like if it was Saruman, though, he would have done something. Like, I don't know why he was up here. It really does seem that way. It's so anticlimactic. But it does talk about how he was literally headed out to meet his Uruks, and then all of a sudden he ran into them. And then maybe he just saw him at the fire and backed away and ran away. But you don't know how far you would see a fire from? Yeah. And then he just walks right up into it. Unless that's his point. That's an intimidation.

[00:55:36] Yeah. It might be. It might be. It might be. It's so weird. But it also seemed like if a wizard like any of these wizards look frail, is that just putting on a front? Like, even like Aragorn said, as soon as Gandalf revealed himself, like, what spell did you have on our eyes or something like that? We couldn't tell it was you. Would it be the same thing with some random old man by the fire? Because it could be any wizard. We just don't know. And are we ever going to find out?

[00:56:06] Or is it? Or it might not be a wizard. It might just be like a tender or something like that. Yeah. I was like, could it just be a guy who's like, hey, what's going on? I know. I was like, it could be. Or like he sent somebody. It's not one of the black riders of the Nazgul because they can't cross the river yet. They're not allowed. Yeah. Daddy's got a curfew for them. Did you know about the eagle? And that's why you were asking them? No, I didn't. That was so cool. I love that. Yeah. I'm so glad that came back. I know. And that whole story was cool too.

[00:56:37] But one of the biggest questions I had is, what happened to Gandalf? Did he actually die? Well, I asked my brother. What did he say? He said he went into like timelessness. And that's what he talks about a little bit. Yeah. Like he was just like wandering in between like space and time. Like, I don't know. Like he doesn't, he didn't have an explanation and I didn't want any spoilers, but yeah.

[00:57:06] Cause it wasn't like death as like the end, like period at the end of the sentence. It was just like, you just kind of go into non-existence, but then like, it's still you that's getting pulled out from that again. It's not like, like a reincarnate version of yourself. It's just like, it's still you. And then he's like laying naked on the mountain. I was like, what is going on? And then they're like, oh, there's a big storm up there. But yeah, I don't know.

[00:57:34] Cause he is definitely like, he doesn't remember things, but then he like, he knows things that he had forgotten already. So I feel like he just is a different version of the same person. Yeah. Maybe he lived like, he's an alternate life or something. Yeah. Honestly. Yeah. Like, I think the movie does a good depiction of it, but in the movie, I always thought like he died and came back to life in the book. I'm like, I don't know. Like he was hovering on the edge of death and he just wasn't able to die.

[00:58:04] And like, so he was just like in this timeless state for what he thought was like thousands of years. Cause he mentions that, but I don't know. Could it just be like a really deep dream? Like almost like being in a coma or something. Honestly. Yeah. Or like you're exhausted. So you just pass out and he could have slept for like three days or something. I don't know. I don't like all that fluffy stuff of death and coming back and whatever.

[00:58:31] It feels like a little too vague without a reason. Like in Harry Potter, it didn't bother me because it was kind of like, oh yeah, we can see why this might happen. But here it feels a little weird. So I like thinking about it as if he didn't die. It feels a little easier to me. Like I was just up there. He had a fight. And then it was mentally for him. He was in some weird place, but it was a life changing experience. Yeah. And then he wears white. Yeah. I loved the description of his fight too.

[00:59:00] Like he, they talk about how he goes to the deep, like from the, from the deepest depths to the highest heights they fought. And then I loved this one little section. My mind, I have this picture of it. But it, it's really creepy at first. Cause he's like, I went to the deepest pit that that abyss and that chasm goes real deep into the earth. And then he's like, there, I think what he says is like, there's nameless evils down there. There's nameless things out there.

[00:59:25] Like there's probably things worse than Balrog down there, which is why I think the line that he says later about Treebeard being the oldest thing under the sun. Makes me terrified for the oldest things that are probably really deep in the crevices and the cracks of the earth. I'm like, there's a whole different story attached to this. And I think I faintly remember this, but I think one of the Narnia books happens all underground. I think the silver chair is like all underground.

[00:59:56] I'm like Tolkien and Lewis just had a, had like a buddy conversation about like, they're like, let's talk about some dark and deep things under the ground. Yeah. I love that line. But then he, uh, he like comes back up and he finds like these, the great stairs or whatever. And Gimli's like, they exist. They're real. That's happened so many times in this story. People are like, that's not just a legend. My favorite one was the hobbits with Aemur and all his buddies. Hobbits aren't real. They can't be real. But then.

[01:00:26] I don't know. I think, uh, it's like an interesting story of like whether or not he actually dies or not. And, uh, what really happens after that? So. Hmm. I was sent back until my task is done. Yeah. Maybe. So he's like not even on his own time. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. But. It's like your boss. Saruman could be corrupted. Yeah. And so I think Gandalf could too.

[01:00:56] And he's in the position of being good and he has good intentions. But this chapter, there was a moment where I was like, he's being tempted by the ring. Yeah. Um, I forget which line it was. So. Gandalf. Yeah. Gandalf. I think, um, I'm going to see if I can find it, but. Oh, here we go. Here we go. Um, something about only hope. Um, I've spoken words of hope, but only of hope. Hope is not victory.

[01:01:26] War is upon us and all our friends. A war, which only the use of the ring could give us surety of victory. It fills me with great sorrow and great fear for much shall be destroyed and all may be lost. I am Gandalf, Gandalf the white, but black is mightier still. Then he rose and gazed out eastward. Shading his eyes.

[01:01:51] So I'm like, he's really looking intently as if he saw things far, far away that none of them could see. Then he shook his head. And in my head, that was a long pause. Then he shook his head. No, he said in a soft voice. It has gone beyond our reach of that. At least let us be glad we can no longer be tempted to use the ring. Dang. We must go down. So I'm like, I literally think he's like, could we get it though? Could we? All right, fine. I guess I can celebrate that.

[01:02:21] It's too far away for me to get to it. I'm like, I think he was tempted. That's actually crazy. I did not pick that up. Maybe. Maybe. Right. Like now that he's white. That's true. Honestly, that's a great point. Maybe like he has more power now because he says black is more powerful. So he's saying Sauron is more powerful. Sauron is the most powerful being right now. Right. To me, then the colors, which makes it last.

[01:02:51] No. I don't think so. Maybe. Well, maybe. Honestly, that's actually an interesting depiction. It does make black. That's so true. So to me, the power ranking is like Sauron, Saruman was next, which is why Saruman thinks he can take over if he's like, you know, it's like the one, two seed. And then maybe like Elrond is maybe more powerful. I feel like Elrond's more powerful than Yandar for some reason. I don't know why. Yeah, I kind of think so too. Or no, Galadriel. I'm going to say Galadriel. Oh, really? Galadriel.

[01:03:18] Galadriel, then Elrond, then Gandalf, then Boromir. Yeah. Then Gimli. We got to do like a power ranking of this. I was, someone asked me an interesting question that they said, if you can have any nine characters in your ultimate fellowship, well, cross literature, cross literature, cross everything, who would you pick? And then I watched this whole big thing. That is fascinating.

[01:03:46] It was a superhero draft and it was these four people competing in this like five person superhero draft. I was like, we got to do that at the end. We're going to do like something like select five or people from the Lord of the Rings to be in your team for a draft. And I love the beauty of this fellowship because that ultimate draft might not just be the power hitters. Yeah. Yeah. It's those who bring levity. Those who are going to be loyal. Yeah. I love that. Yep.

[01:04:16] Um, that's an interesting line though. I like that he had like this big conversation with Gwair, the eagle and the eagle kind of dropped him off. I think there was something that, yeah, that was another interesting line when Gwair is like, I could just drop you right now. You just like float down the earth. Yeah. And he's like, no, don't do that. Please not. And then he takes him to, um, Lothlorien and he just like has a spa weekend in Lothlorien where he goes on and just pursues him. Hmm. Not a bad deal.

[01:04:46] I know. Not a bad deal at all. Yeah. The fight with the Balrog is an interesting one. Um, I think my all time favorite thing in this chapter though was Gimli feeling shafted that he didn't give a message. Again, didn't get a message from Galadriel. That's so funny. And so he says, he says, Aragorn's message from Galadriel. All right. I got to read this because this is one of my favorites. Where now are the dune die in Elessar?

[01:05:15] Why do thy kinsfolk wander afar? Near is the hour when the law should come forth and the great company ride from the north. Dark is the path appointed for thee. The dead watch, the road that leads to the sea. So first of all, that I'm like, we're going to get the dune die in that come down and fight. We have to, right? No, those aren't the ghost things. I think these are like his actual people then. But the ghost people are the dead. That dimension's in here. Yeah.

[01:05:42] I think like the last line, it's like, I think like he's like, it's time to wake up the dune a dine from the north, bring them down to start fighting in this battle. So I'm like, are we to get them at Helm's deep? Isn't there no dune die? Wait, I thought they were all extinct or something. Well, no, there's like the rangers in the north are the dune die. So they're just like wandering their north. So I'm like, are we going to get like a bunch of dune die that come down and fight? And this, I would love that. That'd be sick.

[01:06:09] But then it says his goal is to go to the dead. It says dark is the path appointed for the dead. Watch the road that leads to the sea. So I think Aragorn is going to have to take this path at least to the sea. I don't really know. I don't know what leads to the sea. But that to me seems like the dead army. Like Galadriel is giving him this warning that he needs to go do this path. And maybe Aragorn understands it immediately. And then he says to Legolas, she sent this word. Legolas Greenleaf, long under tree and joy thou hast lived. Beware of the sea.

[01:06:40] If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more. Huh? Doesn't that, I thought that was like, don't get tempted by like the undying lands. I feel like that's what it means too. Yeah. Like don't be tempted. But yeah. Why would she say that? Because all elves are leaving Middle Earth. So like, isn't it saying like, wouldn't it be like, I want you to hear the seagulls.

[01:07:08] So that you do feel this call to go to the undying lands. And that you realize your home is no longer in Mirkwood. Wait, you want him to go to the undying lands? Because all elves are leaving Middle Earth, whether we like it or not. But she doesn't want him to. Well, maybe it's just a warning like, thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.

[01:07:29] Like once you're close to the shore, once you can hear the birds, smell the salt air, like once you're there, you'll never be able to go back to the forest. But is this a metaphor? Is this something deeper? I don't know. I don't know. Is the undying lands still just an out for everything that goes on in Middle Earth? Like they can just leave and be like, not my problem.

[01:07:57] Or does that still affect them? Like we don't know. The undying lands do kind of feel like an out. They're like, oh, crap. Middle Earth's going under. Sorry, guys. The elves time is over. That's what I mean. Like, why can't we all just go together? They're like giving the men the pat on the back. It's your time now. Go ahead, guys. You got this, guys. You can't stay for another like 10 years to help us fight these things. Come on.

[01:08:26] But then after that, my favorite section is Gandalf fell silent and shut his eyes. Then she sent me no messages, said Gimli. And Benta said, darker her words, said Legolas. And little do they mean to those that receive them. That is no comfort, said Gimli. What then, said Legolas? Would you ever speak openly to you of your death? Yes. If she had not else to say.

[01:08:55] What is that? Said Gandalf, opening his eyes. Yes, I think I can guess what her words may mean. Your pardon, Gimli. I was pondering the messages once again. But indeed, she sent words to you. And neither dark nor sad. To Gimli, son of glowing, she said. Give his lady's greeting, lockbearer. Whatever thou goest, my thought goes with thee. But have a care to lay thine axe to the right tree.

[01:09:22] Then he goes, in a happy hour, you have returned to us, Gandalf. Gapering as he sang loudly in the strange dwarf tongue. Come, come, he shouted, swinging his axe. Since Gandalf's head is now sacred, let us find one that is right to cleave. I think that is so good. It's like my favorite section. I love that he gets so pumped when he gets his message from her. Oh, it's glorious. He's so stinking loyal. I know.

[01:09:53] Anything else in this chapter before we go on to the last? There's a bunch of good stuff here. Yeah, there's just a lot of great lines. One that I loved when Gandalf got back to Shadowfax, I think he said this too. Far let us ride now together and part not in this world again. Yeah. Just again, that loyalty. Like, we're in this forever now. Yeah. So great. Yeah, there's so many good lines in here.

[01:10:23] The eagle hold, the eagle discussion. Even like, yeah, even Shadowfax, how he runs. It's like the other two horses. I think this is in this chapter. The other two horses are like exhausted, but they're like running for pride next to Shadowfax. They're like, this is the real deal. This guy's it. There's so many good lines here. All right. Let's see the last chapter. The king of the golden hall. We got a summary of this one?

[01:10:53] Sure do. It's a good one. Had to write it in small letters. Bottom of the page. Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Gandalf go to Rohan to save Theoden. They make friends and they get ready for riding out to battle. Beautiful. What do you guys think of Edoras? Wanted to go there. Yeah. So sick. Yeah. Just sounds awesome. Gotta look up. Ted Naismith, Edoras.

[01:11:24] Ooh, yeah. In the Fangorn chapters, I was thinking of my time in Alaska. I might have mentioned this with the Forbidden Forest too, but. It's pretty sweet. Great. And then you have Edoras right here. Oh, yeah. A little closer to the mountains. It's kind of cool. Yeah, it's awesome. But I love the forest idea where in a really thick old forest that humans haven't touched,

[01:11:50] when you're walking like 20 feet and you turn around, you feel like you're in a whole new forest. And it feels like every turn you make is like you get more lost in and thick. So I just remember that because the whole time in Fangorn was kind of that idea of these thick forests. You can't orient yourself because you can't see the sky. You're just kind of like lost in this world. And thankfully, Fangorn seems like a kind of pleasant world compared to the Mirkwood. All right, back to Rohan.

[01:12:17] Yeah, that's why I like that they do notice that it's like a more pleasant. I think they were like the Mirkwood seems like almost under a disease. This just seems like thick and like, yeah, you know. It's like a tough forest to get through. It's old. Yeah. Thoughts on Edoras? You guys like it? It's a cool city.

[01:12:47] Actually, one one question I have for this one. Is there like what is going on with Faden? So. In the movies, I think they do a decent depiction of it because he like seems to get like younger as time goes on. Like, I think there's one line where like you look, he looked and like, you know, their three wrinkles just disappeared off his forehead and they didn't come back for a while. But what is he? Is he under a spell? Is he under? What is happening with him?

[01:13:17] I have no idea. Because it's. I really thought it was a spell because the movie was so clear about it. Yeah. This when I read it, I'm like, it is possible that there was no spell. It is possible that Wormtongue. Was just a not that nice guy. Yeah. You know, I was like, yep. I'm actually confused. Yep. Which is interesting, too, because in the worm tail.

[01:13:48] Yeah. Any part of a worm we don't like. You know what I mean? Wow. Anybody named worm in any book you don't like. Yep. That was an interesting point to me, too, because in the in the movies, he's pretty ambiguous as well. You don't know if he's like a sorcerer, like like just the name Wormtongue means like he's speaking poison. But there's a few things in this that.

[01:14:14] I feel like Tolkien's commentary on some things like he's like preying on. Aewyn, which is pretty gross. Like, oh, yeah. He seems almost like like a pedophile to some extent, which is really gross. And then Gandalf to shine a light on that a little bit. Exactly. Yeah. Nobody else mentioned it. Yeah. It was almost like to me, Gandalf looked in his mind and was like behind closed eyes. You looked at her or something. He said, I'm like, so maybe nobody else even knew.

[01:14:43] But there were just bad thoughts. And Gandalf's like, that's why I know you're a bad guy. And there's I think there's a lot of beauty in that, too, because after they after he says that ain't one of Aeomer's lines is, yes, finally, like someone's recognizing this. Right. I'm sure Aeomer has been saying that. Yeah. And Aewyn's been saying that to deaf ears for for years. And then all of a sudden Gandalf recognizes it. And he's like, thank you. The hand of the king finally like recognizes what the stuff that we've been going through. Yeah. It has to be so validating right there.

[01:15:13] I think that's fantastic. A little bit of writing. But I don't know. I don't I think he's just like a weird dude. He doesn't seem like a like any kind of sorcerer or like. Maybe he could be learned in those like dark arts or whatever it is, but he just seems like he's crafty with his tongue and just like knows how to keep people down or he doesn't seem like a messenger of Saruman that much. He's like a coward.

[01:15:38] His his true colors definitely do show because I think this this chapter does a really good job of contrasting him and Théoden like Théoden. I was asking people in the discord. I'm like, how old is he in reality? Because he goes from being like one hundred and five in the movie. It's being like like a ripe like 50 years old. Yep. When the books are saying he's about 70. So I'm like, he could. OK, he could be like that decrepit old man that's like sitting in that chair. Yeah. But then he could also be like the strong guy that we kind of see. And he has like a huge figure in my head.

[01:16:09] But. He they were like, you need to stay back and like, you know, man the hall while we go to war. And he's like, no, there's no chance I'm coming with you. And then he grabs a sword and like and then they give the same chance and opportunity to Krimo, which blows my mind. They're like there. Come to war with us and redeem yourself. And I love that. I love that they gave him that choice. Crazy. But then he's like, no, spits on the king or spits and they wash it off.

[01:16:38] They're like, I think the one guy is like scrubbing it out on the rock. And then he just runs away. But even then, Theoden wasn't like, yeah, go kill him. You're evil. He was like, oh, nobody touch him. Let him do his thing. It was like there was still a loyalty there for some reason. Give him a horse. Yeah. Like, yeah, let him do whatever he wants. I was like, huh? So it did leave me feeling like it's possible there was no magic involved here. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:17:05] And that's that made it confusing for what is actually happening here, because there's a difference. Like I keep thinking if this is just a natural thing that's happening, then Théoden is like almost metaphorically getting younger. He's not actually getting younger, but like he has this like bad influence out of his mind now. And now he can like go like it felt like Tolkien's idea of like, go get out of your house and touch grass and then you'll be healed.

[01:17:34] Because the way that he really heals him, that Gandalf really heals him is he doesn't like he puts a spell on him and light comes in. And then all of a sudden he says, like, let's go outside so you can smell the air. And then he goes outside and smells the air. And then he starts to like regain his strength from that. Like this guy just hasn't been outside in a long time. Right. He's like playing video games in his apartment. And Wormtongue like restricts the news that he gets to.

[01:18:02] Like he changes that and like stops the messenger. So I feel like as you're doing that, you also have more influence over that person because you're like you're their only source of input. And then like you can just create a whole world in their mind. And then he could have just like discouraged him into nothingness. Yeah. That's a great point. I do. I'm like, I'm not mad at the idea of there not being magic involved.

[01:18:31] But I also feel like if Wormtongue runs back to Saruman, then it's like then he's serving him. But we don't necessarily know that he did that, right? No. Yeah. That was the part that annoyed me too. Yeah. I know. Yeah. If that was the thing. Yeah. Well, we even know from the non-extended and the non-extended he's there, but he just doesn't stab Saruman over the back. Oh, nice. Nice. Yeah.

[01:18:58] But that was, it's interesting. I actually kind of like the idea that there's no like magic involved as well, because I feel like that's speaking about other things that could potentially be. Like I do like this soft kind of magic system. Yeah. It's just more ambiguous because I think this could help other readers going through other different things too. Like if, I don't know, this seems like an apt analogy for someone struggling with like,

[01:19:21] I don't know, depression or like something that could be like, like, I don't know, maybe just like you have bad influences in your ear and they're always telling you certain things and then finally you break free from their power. Or like, this seems like a very apt analogy for something that Tolkien is trying to drive out. I don't really know what it is yet, but I don't know if that, I don't think he's ever going to ever going to even give an answer here, but I don't know. It just feels like there's this blanket over Bayden and then he finally has it taken off and then he's able to make like smart decisions about.

[01:19:51] Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Like he kept saying, I wish you came sooner. Like he wanted to erase all that, but then he also was just still acting very kingly. He didn't just become subject to like whatever Gandalf ordered everyone to do. He was like, let me think about it. Let me make my decision. And like, I feel like he maintained his king persona throughout all of it, even though he was like, man, I wish you had come sooner and none of this happened, but he's still like

[01:20:21] himself at the end of it, which I appreciated. And then, oh yeah, it's so good. I love that he like comes into himself at the end of it too. Like it's, it's like almost like this slow process. And by the end of this chapter, like Théoden's become, I keep saying this of every chapter, but Théoden's become one of my favorites. Like I love the people of Rohan so much. And Théoden's like this old man who's like decrepit and has like this terrible influence on him. By the end of the chapter, he's riding out to war. His fingers know, know like the strength of his weapon now.

[01:20:49] He's like, like with Aomer. I'm like the whole thing. And even just him giving Aowyn the reins of this kingdom right now, he's like passing this off to her. He's like, oh, this is perfect. You, you know, govern these holes. I love Aowyn's little crush in Aragorn. They're like little flirtation. They're like the eye contact written from both directions. Exactly. It's so good. But Aowyn's even a greater character. Just from the little that we know of her already. She's great.

[01:21:19] I love Aowyn. Yeah. Does Gandalf have Jedi powers? Can he? Yes. These are not the droids you're looking for. With Hama? So, yeah. At the very beginning, he said his eyes glinted under his deep browns, under his deep brows as he bent his gaze upon the man. And something about that like terminology just felt like. Wait, who's the man in that? Is that Théoden? Hama or Grima?

[01:21:48] It was Hama, I believe. Because he's talking about worm tongue. And he says, all right, say no more. I love that you mentioned this. And then he says, yes, I will go. He answers slowly. But what name shall I report? Oh, that might have been to the guard at the beginning. But it still felt like there were a few times where he was kind of doing one of those like. Yeah. You know, like staring really intently. Yeah. And it left me by the end of this chapter thinking Gandalf can influence thoughts.

[01:22:17] Maybe not a ton. But again, a soft magic kind of like. Yeah, yeah. Because I do think there was magic here. I would like to not, but I can't help it. And when we get there, I'll see if I underlined the cane that Théoden had. That black something with a white handle. Yeah. I felt like there was something in the cane that was like dark or. Because he tells Gandalf tells him to like drop it. Like, yeah, he's like, don't use that anymore. And so I'm like, again, I don't know. Soft magic. It could be taken. I don't.

[01:22:48] But I think there was something. Yeah. I'm with you in this whole chapter where it's felt so important for everything Gandalf is telling him to do and what to do. And at the same time, I think he was influencing and talking to people that are easily influenced. Hamo was one of my favorite people in this whole chapter for a few different reasons. But in the beginning, when he is checking their weapons. Gandalf or Legolas gives him the bow. He's like, this is the bow of collateral. He's like. Yeah. And he's like. And he holds it. He's like. Whoa.

[01:23:18] He's like, no. He's like, I'll do this. He's like, no way. And then he puts it down. He's like, oh, my gosh. OK. And I will guard this with my life. But then at the same time, he's defending his country because Aragorn's like, I'm not. He's like, you can't rip this out of my hand. He's like, I'm taking Andriel. I like that. Yeah. I love that. He's like, I'm not. Yeah. And then Hamo takes out his sword and draws it on him. And he's like, I have to. I need to get in a fight for this because this is the king's orders and he still follows the king.

[01:23:47] But then when he takes the sword, he's like. No one will touch this or I see that he's like so trustworthy with it. And so like Hamo is just the boss over there. And then Gimli is about to get in a fight with him. But then I love that he's like Gandalf's like, you're not going to depart an old man from his walking stick. I think Aragorn says that later. But he's like, I have to bring this in. This is like, you know, necessary. And Hamo's like, all right, go ahead. He just seems like such an ADD, like excited person.

[01:24:14] And I'm like such a big fan of him. I love that that was in the book, though. And the other thing that I was so happy was in the book is when Gandalf is like, oh, Sam went with him. That's good. And I was like, I'm so happy that's actually in the book. He was pumped about that. I know. Yeah, I love. Yeah, all of Gandalf's little like. I love to when Gandalf told him he's like, go fetch Aomer. And in my head, because I know the movies, I'm like, crap, that means Hamo is going to

[01:24:43] have to go ride all the way across the country to go get Aomer. But Aomer is really in prison in this kingdom. So he goes and gets them. And then like literally the next the next like moment happens. And Thaden's like, oh, he doesn't know the strength in his fingers. And Gandalf's like, oh, you need to go fetch your sword so your fingers can know their strength. And Hamo's like, oh, I got Aomer. And Aomer's like, take my sword. I love this guy so much. He just seems so excited to like that his king is free now.

[01:25:11] And then he gets to like participate in this. And I love that Aomer is there right by his side. And then Aomer is really like the next in line to take the kingdom. But Aomer is going to go fight with them. This whole chapter I was just nerding out about. Just so good. But yeah, I was even going back to what you're saying. I was thinking the same thing about like the importance of words in this chapter. It makes me want to reread it a few times to see like what Gandalf was actually saying. And what some of these I feel like there's so much symbolism in these.

[01:25:41] What did the cane mean? What did even like like what is the representation of Grima here? Because he just seems like a normal person. Every every moment that Théoden gets like younger and younger as the chapter goes on. Are those specific things that Gandalf is saying that are like spell work? Or are they just more so like he feels unburdened by the things that have been burdening him? And then again, like even his son is dead.

[01:26:07] So you don't get that whole funeral scene where he's like throwing the flowers on the grave. You see the flowers when they're writing into the city. But it's a great chapter. Gandalf, when they call him Gandalf Stormcrow. Did he make that name up on the spot? Because he was talking about crows and stuff. Or is this some name we've ever heard before? I don't think we've heard of it. Or is it just a name here? It's like not. It doesn't seem like a kind name.

[01:26:38] I think I don't think we use it that much. I think it's almost the same as saying like someone's a warmonger. Okay, nice. I think like if you're a storm crow, you're someone who brings bad news. Gotcha. Yeah. All right. Nice. So I like to think it's he's just stealing this. But if not, he's got great nicknames just coming off the dome. Gandalf Stormcrow. I'm like, give me a nickname, dude.

[01:27:07] That sounds great. Yeah, that was that was at the very least. He has good. He has good nicknames that he gives people. I do feel like Gandalf, even if this was not magic and it was just a slap in the face. Gandalf had the magic side of this when there's like a flash of lightning. Yeah. Yeah. Had cloven the roof. Yeah. And worm tongue is sprawled on his face like this.

[01:27:35] It felt like that Dumbledore moment where he'd like just boom and everything goes crazy in a split second. Yeah. It felt like that here where there was just raw power, which I thought was really cool. And it felt even more crazy than in the movie. It was like a storm. And then only Gandalf could be seen. Yeah. And it was like a loud noise and quick. And I don't know. I thought it was really cool. So there was definitely magic involved. And targeted at worm time. Yeah. Definitely.

[01:28:05] Only one person is laying on the floor. It was interesting. That's interesting that you say it, too, because it did feel targeted. I feel like not everyone maybe could see this. I don't know. I just was flipping through this. He goes, down, snake. This is Gandalf. Down on your belly. How long is it since Saruman bought you? Yeah. So and then like that was that other line. Like, how long have you watched behind your eyelids? But like even Gandalf is kind of inclined to think that he's working with Saruman.

[01:28:35] And then like two pages over, Theoden goes, I owe much to Aomer. Faithful heart may have forward tongue, which I loved. And then Gandalf goes, say also that to crooked eyes, truth may wear a wry face. Every once in a while, the character is going random proverbs. Like I kept thinking of the one moment when Gimli and Elrond were doing that. Right when they were leaving. This was one of those moments where I'm like, all right, guys, just have like a little rap battle between yourselves. They're so good.

[01:29:04] I loved, too. So then it is true, as Aomer reported that you are in league with the sorceress of the golden wood, said Wyrmtung. It is not to be wondered at. Webs of deceit were woven in Dwimwardine. Gimli strode forward or strode a pace forward, but suddenly felt the hand of Gandalf clutching him by the shoulder and he halted, standing stiff as a stone. And I'm like, you do not insult Galadriel in front of Gimli. Nope.

[01:29:32] Like here you have, here you have Wyrmtung, like, oh, the sorceress of the golden wood. She's like terrible. She's weaving webs of deceit. And Gimli is like, all right, let me just take this, take this guy's head off. And he doesn't even have a weapon. He's like, I'm going to take this guy's head off with my bare hands. I love that he got the best gift. And then his message was just like, I'm thinking of you. And then he's like charged up with energy. He was so cute.

[01:30:00] Did Gandalf do a little spell or did Gimli just stop and was like stone? Yeah. I actually felt like it was like he locked him in place a little bit. That's interesting. But that's how I read it because I thought, didn't he make him kind of like stone when they first saw him in Fangorn Forest too? So I thought maybe they, he's got it. He's got a stone spell. Maybe now that he's the white, he can like exercise all these powers more. He's got a few extra powers.

[01:30:30] Yeah. He's got a bigger arsenal. He's like, oh, I didn't know I could turn someone into stone. And he just like lays a hand on him. He's like, because it does say he kind of just stood there frozen. It feels like Gandalf's will has a little bit more power in whatever direction he points it. So, but again, whether magic or not, I don't know. And it doesn't make a difference except just in our own minds. But it's fun. That's it. That's a cool point. It does feel like I never, I didn't really notice that, but it does feel like Gandalf has like a little bit more power than he did previously.

[01:31:00] Like before when he was doing spell work, he either was forgetful. Like you couldn't remember the password or like, I mean, it's a Balrog. So it's like a pretty significantly powerful sorcerer itself. But he was like doing a spell to seal the door and the Balrog stopped this spell, like shut his mouth. But here he's just like everything succeeding that he's doing. He just seems like not a, he seems like not significantly more powerful, but more powerful. Yeah. Maybe once you're dead, you can get away with more stuff. Exactly.

[01:31:30] He's like, I've seen, you know, the realm of the dead. I know what they're doing over there. I've learned a few spells in my day. But dang, Thaden at the end, even at the middle of this chapter was so great. I loved, loved Thaden. I loved, it says, slowly Thaden stretched forth his hand. As his fingers took the hilt, it seemed to the watchers that firmness and strength returned to his thin arm.

[01:31:56] Suddenly he lifted the blade and swung it shimmering and whistling in the air. Then he gave a great cry. His voice rang clear as he chanted in the tongue of Rohan, a call to arms. Arise now, arise. Riders of Thaden. Dire deeds awaken. Dark is it eastward. Let a horse be bridled, horn be sounded. Forth, Erelingas.

[01:32:26] Standing off like, chewing. Let's go! I was so pumped. I'm like, this is a king that I would follow. I love this. And then I also love the moments that Aragorn has in this too. Like, we were getting more and more frequent of these scenes where Aragorn is seen as this insanely kingly person. Especially when he was talking to Gandalf. Yes! He had his hand on his sword and he was all tall. And then Gandalf was like really small. That was a big moment.

[01:32:54] Because I'm like, if he's making Gandalf the White look small compared to him. He's so ready. Like, this guy, yeah. I know he's getting more and more ready every single day. And he's flexing that king line pretty often. Like, to the guards and stuff. And I'm just surprised because in the movie it feels like he's ashamed still. Yeah, he doesn't want it. He's not even ready at all. But in the books, he's warming up to the idea pretty quick. And I like the change in the movies.

[01:33:22] But I also, the more and more that I'm reading this, the more and more that I like how, like, into it he is. And I like this too because it's like he wants to get there but he just can't. So it's like he's marching around the city of men that he's, like, really trying to get to, which is Gondor. He's like, crap. Because when he's talking about, because when they're going down the river, he's like, finally I can go to, he's like, my heart really longs to go to Minas Tirith. He's like, I have to go follow Merry and Pippin. Then he goes, follows Merry and Pippin. Then he meets Gandalf again. He's like, crap. Now I have to go defend Rohan.

[01:33:52] So he's like getting into these battles that he doesn't want to get into. But he's like growing in his kingliness even more. And he's becoming an even better king because, like, all these things are happening that he's seeing and that he's witnessing. I'm like, even with Thaden, like, seeing what Thaden has gone through and what he's going through. Got mauled in there. I'm like, this is even going to make him a better king. Seeing, like, the power of words and, like, seeing the significance that someone like Green Wormtongue can have on a person. Yeah, you're right. Right. So good.

[01:34:22] In the movies, I think Aragorn's horse was called Brigo. Brigo, yeah. Brigo. And Brigo is the son of Oral. And his horse is not called Brigo yet. So I'm like, yeah. I'm just curious if we're going to meet Brigo in the future or if it's just they changed it. What's the other words? I just keep saying A-Rod, but it's not A-Rod. But that's how I read it. Oh, yeah. A-Rod. A-Rod. Nice. A-Rod. A-Rod. A-Rod. I think. Yeah, sounds right. Yeah.

[01:34:52] Oh, and then he was like, me and Shadowfax have, like, a bond of love. Yes. Yeah, you too. You too. You sure do. So I was like, I love that so much. Now, now I want to go back to the scene with Bill and Sam. And I'm like, I wonder if Gandalf would have treated that differently now that he has a bond. He has a bond with Shadowfax. Yeah, you're right. Sam has the same bond with Bill the Pony over there. And Gandalf's here. Oh, we have to let him go. He's not going to deal with it. I'm like, now you probably couldn't tear.

[01:35:21] Because what did he say? We're never going to be apart again or whatever. We're lovers over here. I love this. You made Sam let him go. Is Bill like the Lord of the Donkeys, though? Or is he just another donkey? No, Bill is the Lord of the Donkeys. Absolutely he is. We know that Bill is the Lord of the Donkeys. He's got a brain in there. Who is the Lord of the Donkeys again? Who is the one that... What? It was the... Of the Donkeys?

[01:35:45] You remember Tom Bombadil sends him with this one pony that's the leader of the pack and like... I do not remember that. Wow, that's far back. I mean... I know. That's real far back. I don't remember. The Lord of the Donkeys. The old forest Tom Bombadil pony name. Fatty Lumpkin. Oh, yeah. Fatty Lumpkin. You guys remember? That was ages ago. Of course I do. That was in the first age of our drive. Oh, God.

[01:36:16] Fatty Lumpkin. Terrible name, but... I know. This line cracked me up so much. Gimli is talking with Legolas and he goes, Nonetheless, this is not the warfare that suits me. How shall I come to the battle? I wish I could walk and not bump like a sack at Gandalf's elbow. Poor Gimli. I was dying. And then he's like, I love my feet better. Yeah.

[01:36:45] It's funny to see Gimli with all these different people because in the movies, I feel like it was pretty consistent. Yeah. Just him and Legolas hanging out. And now he's just... Well, Aomir, right? Yeah. Took him. I would have loved so much to see. Like, because he's not comedic relief in the books. He... But he is at the same time. I think he is. He's just deadpan. I know. He's not trying. Exactly. Exactly. Which makes him so much more funny. I would have loved if they pushed into that a little bit more in the movies. Like, he is super funny in the movies.

[01:37:15] I love him in the movies. But I would love for him to, like, be the guy that's defending Galadriel. Like, they should have made that an ongoing joke in the movies. Like, that would have been perfect. They have so many opportunities when, like, they meet Aomir. If Aomir is like, oh, like the Lady of the Woods. She's like a sorceress. I want Gimli to, like, say something quippy to him. And even in this moment, I want him to be, like, the one that's stepping forward. Like, that, to me, is such a good movie moment. When all of a sudden, Dream of Wormtongue, out of nowhere, just insults Galadriel.

[01:37:43] And then all of a sudden, in the background, you just see Gimli, like, stepping forward. I'm about to rip this guy's head off. I'm like, there's so much good comedy here. And then even in that line that you were reading, because he's like, I want to start hewing the heads of orc and not men or something like that. Like, he's like, they're a little lower. So that's why he wants to get level with them and start fighting. Gimli is so funny. And they left Eowyn. Eowyn stays at the house. Which is interesting. She's like, no, the women ride out.

[01:38:12] Like, they said that in the movies. So I don't know why they emphasize that. And she would be, like, if the battle doesn't go well, she's in charge, right? Like, she'd be the queen, which is cool. Also, I think Hama was the one who mentioned that. So way to go. I hope that he ends up with her. You know, the movie may have gone a different way. But I was like, I think he's got a little crush. Wait, Hama and Eomer? Yeah. Wait, not Eowyn. I never know. Eowyn.

[01:38:39] Yeah, because I think he was the one who suggested it to the king when the king's like, where am I going to find somebody? And I think he chimed in like, well, you do have somebody else here. Yeah. Which I just thought was funny that he's thinking that before the king even thought of his own niece. Well, that makes me think that she's, because he says that, he says she is loved by everyone. Yeah. Which is so good. And so I'm like, she would be such a good queen.

[01:39:04] Honestly, I think she, from the little that I know of Eomer and Eowyn, I think Eowyn is a better role for that. I think Eowyn is obviously like a better general, like, but he almost seems to be losing the control of some of his men. And his men are like backtalking him in the previous few chapters when they were like discussing. I think it was one of the people over there was like rolling his eyes at the suggestions of Eomer, like letting them go. But Eowyn seems beloved by everyone there.

[01:39:33] So I'm like, she'd be a fantastic queen. And we don't, we barely know her. And I already like love her. I think she's great. So yeah, I love that there was like just suggestions of that. I don't know. I just love, like now that this curse is gone from Edoras, I love all these characters so much. Like Eomer becomes cooler in my eyes. Eowyn is cool. I think Theoden is so fantastic and like his humility here and like his generosity.

[01:40:00] I love that he becomes king and then, um, cream was like, keep me here. I'll look after your riches for you. And then you, I think you see how ungreedy he is because he, the next greatest thing that he has is probably shadow facts. And he just will like gladly gives that away. Yep. To Gandalf. I'm like, that is a baller King. I love that. And he feels bad that he doesn't have more gifts. Yeah.

[01:40:27] So he's just like, guys, go down there, help yourselves, pick out something great. Pick out any armor, whatever you want. It's all yours. Yeah. I think that's, it's fantastic. You guys have anything else in this chapter? I love these little flirting moments. This is the last line I'll read. He touched her hands. Yeah. Thaden drank from the cup and she then proffered it to the guests.

[01:40:57] As she stood before Aragorn, she paused suddenly and looked upon him and her eyes were shining. And he looked down upon her fair face and smiled. But as he took the cup, his hand met hers. And he knew that she trembled at the touch. Hail Aragorn, son of Aragorn, she said. Hail Lady of Rohan, he answered. But his face was now troubled and he did not smile. Ouch. What do you mean what is that? Like why?

[01:41:25] Because he's got his mind on his one true love and he feels guilty. Yeah. I was going to say, he actually felt like he was a little torn, but he kind of made the decision. He's like, yeah, I got a friend zone her because that's how I'm feeling. And so he's like, I'm not going to smile. Yeah. Because I feel like he was already checking her out from across the room in like a couple pages earlier. He's like, she's pretty fair over there. Yeah. And so then I feel like he's like, oh, well, I can't lead her on. So, okay. Yeah, for sure.

[01:41:54] But he doesn't have the necklace, right? What was that? No, he does have it. He does have it now because Galadriel gave it to him. But I thought we said like that wasn't a necklace. Well, that's the thing. I think he has it, but I don't know that he has it. I read that to mean Galadriel gave him the necklace that we see in the movie that represents the love. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it kind of the question I still have is, does that represent I'm going to marry you?

[01:42:21] I'm choosing not to go to the undying lands and I'm going to be a human now. Or is it more vague than that? I don't know. But it certainly to me was like a commitment of some kind. Okay. Did you not think of it as a commitment? I was just I forgot if it was an actual like necklace or if it was something else, because yeah, I remember just being described differently. And then I was wondering because in the movie, it's like he can just like pull his chain out. It's like, obviously, like I'm taken. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:42:51] Then I was like, is that not going to happen? But you're right. And it hasn't come up since then. And we in the book has not concluded it. We only know like spoilers from the movie. But the book has not really given any more than Galadriel's vague promise of her granddaughter. Yeah. So then nothing in this book so far. About. It is unmentioned. Or when. Almost done. We're getting there. We're getting there. Yeah, we're pretty much done.

[01:43:20] You guys have anything else in this chapter? No. Not really. I do think it's interesting to the the difference between like the decisions that the characters make. I got to, you know, I'm not going to fault the movies for this, but like. Gandalf Thaden seems like a weaker king in the movies. Like as soon as he's released, it's like great. It's a cool moment.

[01:43:49] But then he just doesn't seem quite as strong as he is. He does in the books like in the in the in the movie. Maybe there's this disparity between what Gandalf thinks he should do. Like don't flee to Helm's Deep, like fight him, but don't flee to Helm's Deep. And then all of a sudden they he empties the whole city of Edoras and they're fleeing to Helm's Deep to like to protect themselves. I'm like, I understand that for the plotting of the movie. But in the book, it's just like smarter. It's like Gandalf's almost in agreement with him. Like everyone is in agreement with him. They have to go fight him and they're probably going to do this in Helm's Deep.

[01:44:18] That's like the only natural location that they can go do this. And they're going to leave like, you know, the woman and the children behind. And Gandalf just seems like on page with him. He's like whispering smart, good advice in his ear and they had and is taking this smart, good advice. And he's not like opposed to Gandalf in this moment. Like he sometimes seems like he is in the movies. So I think he's so much stronger of a character in the books. He's like a king that I would love to follow.

[01:44:46] So I'm a big, big Thaden fan right now. I think he's fantastic. I just like I like the small little not even small. I like the changes that we get in the book for who he is. So favorites to sell the basket of mushrooms. What is it again? The gifts of gladiator. The golden hair. The golden hair. So what's your favorite moment? Why can't we do that necklace? That's better than hair. That's not a bad idea. What is that called?

[01:45:16] How about we can give the hot tamale. We can give our necklace to that person. Yeah, I like that. I like that. Who's the hottest character? Who is your who wins the basket of mushrooms or the golden or the gladiator's gifts? Who wins gladiator's gifts? And what's your favorite moment? I think hot tamale. I'm ignoring things.

[01:45:46] Yeah, I know. It is Eowyn. Okay. Just because it's just how it needs to be. Agreed. And then I would say favorite character. I kind of want to say Gandalf in these chapters actually. Wow. Because I feel like Theoden might have his moment in like the next chapter too. But I just, I really like Gandalf when he like reconnects with the trio and like that whole conversation.

[01:46:16] I don't really have a favorite moment. But yeah, character of Gandalf. There's so many good moments. I know. You have to. I'm just kidding. You don't have that one. I think my favorite moment going off of that is Gimli defending Galadriel a few times in these chapters. It was just like some of the funniest writing too. I loved it so much. I think Eowyn is probably my hot tamale too. Lots of, lots of babe energy there.

[01:46:46] And then I think Theoden's my favorite in these. I mean, it's tough. Treebeard or Theoden? They're two totally different chapters. But I'll put them both as number ones. I love Theoden for like how good of a king he is, I think. And like how he's coming out of this like thawnt, like this freeze he's in. And then Treebeard is just, everything about him is fantastic. I love that he is the one that is like leading them into war. And like he, he's convinced.

[01:47:14] And the Ents make this, make this decision together that they need to take responsibility and go to war. Rather than they all don't think this. And Mary is the one that, or Mary and Pippen are the ones that kind of convince him otherwise. I just love that. It was like a moment where Treebeard gets furious and he's like, oh, I need to calm down. I need to calm down. And then he, I guess he convinces him to go to war. I think everything about him. His non-hastiness, his listening skills, his storytelling.

[01:47:43] He just lays down as stiff as a board. I love him. It's great. My honorable mention is going to go to Aemir because this chapter mentioned, I think Gandalf said it, that if he didn't cut off the orcs, bad things would have happened. So it's just, you know, big impact on the story. Huge. Yeah. But I think my favorite character, I'm going to say Mary.

[01:48:08] I think Mary and Pippen both together, but like, I think Mary just had a couple moments of like being really in tune with Treebeard and the forest. And he was content. He was asking questions. And like Gandalf said, it was, they're just two stones that start an avalanche here. Yeah. Agreed. So again, the impact and reading those chapters, I really liked it. But my favorite moment was when they were right outside of the Golden Hall with their weapons and kind of like that tension.

[01:48:38] Will Gandalf get the staff in? They're wondering at the, all the awesome weapons these dudes carry. It's so cool. Hot Tamale, probably the Entwives. Oh, great. Great. We can't give another one to Eowyn, you know, she's got enough. Great pick for the Entwives. That's promiscuous little ladies. Yeah. I was looking for whiter blossoms. Come on now. It's got to be a euphemism for something. Yeah. He's being too specific about that. Yeah, I know.

[01:49:07] I definitely know there's some woman reading this in like another land that like dated Tolkien. And she comes to this section, she's like, what? He's talking about me here. Could I move to Japan for the cherry blossoms? It was exactly that. Yeah, I think I got them all. Well, Jen, you got anything? Who was your favorite? Favorite anything? You got any highlights? I like Treebeard.

[01:49:38] That's all we need. Excellent. That's it. That's all we need. We like him too. Treebeard's so good. Great dude. I didn't get to the last chapter. I know, yeah. You guys. You'll have to catch up for us for next. That's why it was good for you to sleep through that part. So that we didn't spoil anything. That was spoiling. Exactly. I love that. Teamwork. Well, thanks for joining us on our journey of the fellowship of the first time readers. See ya. See ya. Bye, guys. The next chapter is called Helmsteen.

[01:50:08] I know. Yeah. I can't believe how fast that is. I'm like, not that I was expecting it to the end, but I'm like, wow, it is here. And it's not even that long of a chapter too. Yeah, it's all three. So like, we're kind of, we're not halfway, but we're getting close.